Help....Are my Roses dying?

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Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:32 pm

I'm worried that some of my roses look they are dying.

I live in Perth, Australia. I planted all (11) roses in June/July 2010. Alternating a Sachamo/Iceberg/Sachamo ect planted 90cm apart.
The garden bed was filled with organic soil and topped with lupin mulch.
They were going great all through summer the following winter up to my first pruning in 2011 and up to xmas.
When the growing season started again in 2011 they were starting to come along, although the Sachamo's dont seem to respond a quick as the icebergs, but they were going ok.
During the feeding period I was giving them Black Magic/Rose Magic once a week with some GP thrive & Seasol every 2-3 weeks, and they were going real good.

From mid December 2011 to late January 2012 we were busy with holidays so maintenance was low in regards to removing dead blooms, my parent did come over to feed & water them (they have roses also)
So by mid February they looked like they needed a little pruning and the Sachamo's didn't look as good as the previous year.
I removed the dead blooms, gave them a good feed of Black Magic with Seasol & Thrive, also topped up the Lupin mulch and a deep watering.

I noticed from mid Feb to early March that most, in particular the Sachamo's has little or no responce from the feed and clipping the dead blooms.
Out of all the roses only 3 of the icebergs are doing ok.

It was at this point I did see a lot of leaved that looked brown on the tips.
I remove the most damaged leaves, but not all. As well as try to clean up around the base of each rose.
I took a leaf clipping to Bunnings and they told me the disease may be due to a lack of Nitrogen, they said to reduce the black magic to once a month as this was too much.
They suggested I use blood & bone along with Powerfeed to increase the nitrogen, also they gave me some Mancozeb to spray at night or early morning.
The fertilizers & fungicidal spray to be applied once a week.

So after 48 hours after spraying Mancozeb and giving the roses a good water every morning, some of the leaves on the Sachamo's have turned black on one side.
Not sure if the is due to the spray doing it's thing or the disease is progressing further.

Have I done the right thing.

I have attached some images, any help/advice would be appreciated.

Sachamo before removing damaged leaves & Mancozeb spray
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Iceberg before removing damaged leaves & Mancozeb spray
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Sachamo above (close up)
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L shape garden bed with Sachamo/Iceberg/Sachamo from left to right ect
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Continuation of garden bed with the healthier Icebergs
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Same Sachamo 48 hours after Mancozeb spray
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Same Iceberg 48 hours after Mancozeb spray.
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Sample Sachamo leaf (Top)
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Sample Sachamo leaf (bottom)
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Regards

Del
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:49 am

Hi Del. Where to start?????

My first thought on seeing your first four pics was that along with some deficiencies they appear to have been over fed so I did a bit of checking. The makers of Black Magic recommend using it every 4 to 6 weeks, so the weekly dose was just a bit too much.

The main problem there, the crispy ends and yellowing around the edges of the leaves is most likely a potash (potassium) deficiency, which can be remedied by the application of a dose of sulphate of potash. The lack of new growth and the general lack of vigour may be attributable to a deficiency in one or more of the trace elements, such as boron or manganese (symptoms can be similar.) The symptoms of manganese deficiency: Growth slows. Younger leaves turn pale yellow, often starting between veins. May develop dark or dead spots. Leaves, shoots and fruit diminished in size. Failure to bloom. The simplest way of treating this is with a dose of trace elements at the rate recommended on the pack. Commercial fertilizers tend to focus on the three main elements that essential for plant growth, but neglect the micro (or trace) elements that are needed to remain healthy. It's useful to do some reading up and learn what element and mineral deficiencies look like so that you can treat them early on before too much damage is done to your plants.

I'm not sure why the person at Bunnings, having decided "it might be due to a lack of Nitrogen" then suggested that you use Mancozeb on them, but hey, anything that sells, I guess. :roll: The blackened leaves are most likely the result of sun soon after you sprayed, or simply excess heat. That last pic is simply residue from the spray.

On that subject - you see the plants along the side that are doing so much better? In comparison to those, the ones that are struggling would not only be getting more sun, but also a lot of heat reflected from the wall and paving.

You need to be mindful that your plants are heading into their dormant period, and as such, they're not going to need the sort of fertilising that they' would during the period of active growth and flowering. If you were to continue over feeding (as you would be doing if you followed the advice of the person from Bunnings (I'm stunned that they suggested weekly doses of blood and bone) I suspect they'd have a hard time recovering.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Stormgirl » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm

My very first suspicion upon reading this (without seeing the pics) is that you are being too kind to them. Roses are hardier than most people think, they'll survive quite happily on neglect for years and years...sure, they don't look as good, but I don't think they need quite so much of anything you've been doing.

I have been growing roses successfully for years (except this year with all the rain in Sydney) and I have only ever used Dynamic Lifter for fertilising, the odd spray of Confidor when the aphids are out of control, and a spray of lime sulphur after a hard prune in winter. Then I deadhead regularyl and they perform reasonably reliably.

I only ever fertilise once in early spring, and maybe once in mid-summer....so I think you might need to give your roses a good prune and just leave them alone until they recover.

Hope that helps. (Y)
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:41 pm

Thank you Pam & Stormgirl for your replies.

So it seems like its not a disease, just a combination of over feeding and incorrect balance of nutrients.
I guess after the first year they performed well with feeding almost every week, I was lead to believe that I was doing the right thing.

@ Pam: I did forget to mention that I did sprinkle some potash around the rose base before Xmas and then again in Mid Feb along with the Rose Magic/Thrive/Seasol when I became concerned with the state of the Roses.
As far a plant position goes, its a mixed bag. The Sachamo pic above and the other two Reds along that side were the best performing plant last year whilst both Icebergs in between were the worst, and still are :(
On the other side all accept the Sachamo on the end performed well.

As mentioned previously, last week I sprinkled 125mm of Blood & Bone + trace elements and watered in a good dose of liquid Power-feed fertilizer.
Here in Perth we've had the last few day over 30deg with this weekend expecting 35+ So I have been hand watering early every morning all week, is this ok?

So, whats the best coarse of action from here on until they become dormant, just water and hope they recover for next year?
The brown/black leaves that are still on the plants, do I remove them or keep them on?

Thank you, your assistance has been appreciated.

Del
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:03 am

What is your soil's PH like Del? This can affect your soil's ability to take up nutrients.

The brown/black leaves that are still on the plants, do I remove them or keep them on?


They're certainly not feeding the plant any more, so cutting them off can do no harm.

Is your soil sandy? If so, something to be aware of is that iron can leach rapidly from sandy soils, leading to a shortage of iron, which can be a cause of yellow leaves, amongst other problems. It's a fairly common problem in sandy areas.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:28 am

Thanks Pam

Pam wrote:What is your soil's PH like Del? This can affect your soil's ability to take up nutrients.


I don't know, I'll go to Bunnings this weekend and get a soil PH test meter, only $10 will this be accurate enough?

Pam wrote:They're certainly not feeding the plant any more, so cutting them off can do no harm.

Do I cut the individual leaf of or the remove the group attached to the stem?

Pam wrote:Is your soil sandy?

No, the garden bed was filled with good soil, my wife will look it up for me later as to the name of it.
The soil was then treated with sand remedy from Dawsons.
All this was done in June 2010. all I have done to the soil since is just add some Lupin mulch if it needs topping up.

Regards

Del
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Sam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:56 pm

Hi Del!

You would be far better off buying a pH test kit - the kind where you mix a soil sample and check it that way.

I've not known anyone who has ever found the meters that you stick into the ground to be accurate.

The kits aren't much more expensive and will last a very long time.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:17 pm

Yes, I'd heard the meters were rubbish. I don't think a kit is much more expensive than that anyway? I don't know, I haven't had to buy one for a while.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, after doing a quick google search I came to the conclusion that digital PH probes were not very accurate.
I'll hopefully head off to Dawsons Garden Center, where I got all my roses from, they said to bring some cutting in as well as some soil samples taken from
around the garden bed to do PH test. While I'm there I may get a test kit if they have any.

Cheers

Del
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby karyn » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:03 pm

I got my pH test kit for $20 - $30 at the B place, and it lasts a really long time.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:30 am

DelBoy wrote:Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, after doing a quick google search I came to the conclusion that digital PH probes were not very accurate.
I'll hopefully head off to Dawsons Garden Center, where I got all my roses from, they said to bring some cutting in as well as some soil samples taken from
around the garden bed to do PH test. While I'm there I may get a test kit if they have any.

Cheers

Del


You won't need to rush Del, because it sounds as though they're doing a PH test for you. They're extremely helpful to have on hand though.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:46 pm

Had the soil checked at Dawsons and all is good with the several samples I provided both in between the roses and at the base.
I showed them some sample clipping and there opinion was from to much fertilizer.
Advised to keep deep watering regularly to flush the root system and occasionaly use some Seasol as a tonic every 1-2 weeks.
Keeps leaves on to aid in photosynthesis as it's not a disease, and if desired, can prune back a little, when new growth appears
then remove old growth if it has not already fallen off.

I'm annoyed with myself for letting it get to this stage so I hope this remedy helps.

Cheers

Del

PS After all that I forgot to get a Ph test kit, I'll get one next time :)
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:01 am

Keeps leaves on to aid in photosynthesis as it's not a disease


But they need chlorophyll to do that. If they're black instead of green they're not going to do that. Or are they referring to the ones that are crispy but still partially green? In that case, yes, absolutely. The plants are going to be going into shut down mode shortly of their own accord and will tidy themselves up nicely at the same time. :)
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:29 pm

Hello Pam

Pam wrote: Or are they referring to the ones that are crispy but still partially green?


The suggestion was made after inspecting all clippings.
Most of the really bad leaves have been removed, and the majority of the remaining black leaves are not as bad as the ones in the picture or the sample I gave to Dawsons ( still a little bit of green on them).
I'm usually checking every day and remove any really bad leaves if they haven't fallen off already.

Cheers

Del
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Pam » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 pm

Del, a tip I learned from Taffy (our resident local bonsai enthusiast) is that if, when removing leaves, you snip them off, but leave the small stalk still attached to the stem they'll often form a new leaf in the same spot, whereas if you pull them off or remove the little stalk entirely, they may not. I don't know whether this would work for roses, but you have nothing to lose by trying. :)
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby DelBoy » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:17 pm

Pam wrote:Del, a tip I learned from Taffy (our resident local bonsai enthusiast) is that if, when removing leaves, you snip them off, but leave the small stalk still attached to the stem they'll often form a new leaf in the same spot, whereas if you pull them off or remove the little stalk entirely, they may not. I don't know whether this would work for roses, but you have nothing to lose by trying.


Thanks for the tip Pam, yes I have been removing the stalk, I'll cut the remaining off leaving a small stem and see if that helps.

Thanks

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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Temora140 » Sat May 26, 2012 9:32 am

Yes test your pH, I have a test meter but I paid over $200.00 for it, I always suggest that people just buy the normal test kit for their requirements. It sounds like too much fertiliser and to much water to me. We have 35 to 40 degree days here but my roses only get a deep water once a week and if the leaves look a bit droopy in the evening I will then give them a hand water. Only fertilise once a month with organic fertilser or when ever the packet states with slow release. I would use Powerfeeder once a fortnight as a foliar feed. If the humidity is high and you are getting fungi, eg, black spot or grey mould, use a mix of Bicarb, dishwashing liquid and veggie oil and spray on leaves top and underneath plus on the stems once a fortnight or after rain, this will help control the fungii.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Geoff Clifton » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:08 pm

Three possible problems that I can see.

The garden bed has a narrow surface surrounded by a lot of construction and paving. The soil may test well at the surface but what is the rubble like below?

It must get very hot within all that masonry, there are limits.

I can see plants are in black plastic pots buried in mulch. Add the heat from the masonry and and you may just be cooking them. Get them out of the pots and let the roots find the deeper, cooler soil.

Unless you actually poison them, roses are not easy to kill. I have just bought a 25 year old back that had been totally neglected for 10 years. Prune, chook poo and water. Home made white oil for scale and a spray of pyrethrum for aphids.

Get them in the ground, cut back on the feeding, water well in spring (not the leaves) and talk to them :lol:
Good luck for next year.

Geoff.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby daffy » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:51 pm

And yet some more advise :roll:

1.First look I would say fertilizer burn.
2. 2011/12 season was NOT a good season for roses-too wet.
3. 2 applications of Sudden Impact (one in Spring, one in Feb -after heat)
4. Seaweed foliage application a least once a month during flowering period.
5. Deep watering once a week is better than surface watering daily.
6. Some types just will not like your location and it doesn't matter how hard you try they won't 'do'.
7. They really are tough if they like their spot! :D
Never believe anyone who says your proposed garden is too big!!!

Remember, treat others how you would like to be treated.
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Re: Help....Are my Roses dying?

Postby Temora140 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:18 pm

Good spotting Geoff, Yes get them out of those pots and into the ground proper, thats part of your problem to start with.
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